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What about a Kickstart Replacement (Phase III) Bounty?
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Yes what about a Kickstastart Phase III Debugging Bounty!?

Posted on: 2012/7/31 19:36
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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aros wrote:

Quote:

By "works" you surely mean they just are "launched" .
And no this is not fud; I actually tried to "use" many "real" amiga programs on aros68k.

i can only tell from my own almost daily experience with aros 68k on real hardware.

yes, in some cases they just launch and hang or crash or do not function (my experience with digibooster, scalos..), sometimes they work but not reliable (netsurf, miamidx.., many/most ixemul/sdl game ports)
and sometimes they just work as on aos with at most a problem here and there (snoopdos, scout, dopus)
and many i have not tried extensively although they worked as far as i tried them (yam, simplemail, trident (deneb version)

a number of application doesnt work (ibrowse- known for hacking into undocumented internal structs of mui), opriginal amiga games that may poke into the chipset registers.



Quote:

I'm not a newcomer!

sorry, you looked like one with your few posts. my bad.

Quote:

Anyway, I'm sorry if I've upset someone with this thread.

im not upset but you apparently didnt looked close enough. have you bothered to try to feed back to the developers or at least fill bug report about your problems. i know it can be depressing to insist, knowing the others are busy enough and under preassure, but tha applies not only to aros/kickstart68k but the whole aros. hell, it applies to the amiga community. we have to live with it.

as its been said, if you have a proposal, scout the possibilities, find out how much it would cost and come back to discuss and maybe setup a bounty as soon as you have some facts on your hands. as long as you have not, there is nothing to discuss.

thats how kas1e and olaf have set up a bounty for dopus magellan sources on p2p. see what come out of that, even if that bounty was handled rather well as for amiga standards.

Posted on: 2012/7/31 19:11
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Which programs did you try to use and did not work and which problems were there? Many applications work in my experience. Of course not most of the patches. Scalos works, Opus Magellan works (some problems with icons but functionality works)

Games (ADF booting with Kickstart replacement) run about 40% right now. So not 100% of course but it is not end of the way.

Regarding acquiring rights... OS4 users get the Rom as part of the OS so they would certainly not be interested. Some of the MorphOS users might but most existing users have Amigaforever (i have several licenses myself) so many (if not most) would propably not be interested. The rom itself cannot be adapted to new hardware like the FPGA without source (that is not available). And then who has the rights for it? Amiga Inc.? Hyperion? Or somebody else? Nobody knows. Even if you would have agreement with one party you still risk being attacked by the other party. I see no way out there and I do not see the interest in the community to collect huge sums of money for it.

P.S. you have not upset anyone. Everyone can say what he thinks but of course the ideas must not be shared in every case

For those who are interested. I work right now on a compatibility page:
http://www.natami-news.de/html/compatibility.html

Posted on: 2012/7/31 12:47

Edited by OlafS3 on 2012/7/31 13:16:53
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Quote:

aros wrote:
I'd wish we, as a community, raise the funds necessary to get commodore amiga roms & WB 1.3/3.x rights


But this is not how it works here. *You* propose a bounty with the bounty requirements, then *you* add the first $$'s to the bounty. Then people decide, whether to contribute or not.

There is no "we as a community". At least I am not part of a community, that wants to pay for old roms. I have the rights to use them since ages, I payed my C= developer fees long time ago for them.

Quote:

Well, the fact is that Aros68k isn't and wlll NEVER be 100% compatible, in order for us to have a proper AmigaOS integration.


Never say never ;). And if it comes to real integration, I bet AROS/m68k has much better options there.

Posted on: 2012/7/31 12:35

Edited by o1i on 2012/7/31 13:12:05
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Quote:

aros wrote:

I can buy it for sure, BUT we can't tell a generic user (read: a newcomer to Aros) to go through the hassle to purchase it and copying it to the "appropriate" directory in order to "activate" the integrated amigaos experience.


*** DISCLAIMER: this is what I (me, Paolo Besser) think, it does not reflects all AROS people feelings ***

It's exactly what I - and with some extent also many others - actually did for YEARS, and I think this may be a issue only for people who feel there's a issue with it.

I would never pay for a similar bounty, nor I wish to add these ROMs to my distribution. Jason and Tony did great efforts to bring us a good AROS replacement, and I will integrate this replacement only.

Cloanto is doing a great job with Amiga Forever and I won't give for free what they have paid for, so I will continue tell my users to purchase Amiga Forever if the compatibility degree of AROS M68K does not satisfy.

End of rant.

Posted on: 2012/7/31 12:35
p.bes
Icaros Desktop AROS distribution mantainer
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
...
BTW.. Amiga ROMS and WB are still interesting commercial prodcuts..



Let me express my doubts about it.



Quote:


telling that it will not be compatible enough is fud. i use it on my amigas and great amount of original software works already



By "works" you surely mean they just are "launched" .
And no this is not fud; I actually tried to "use" many "real" amiga programs on aros68k.

Quote:


but i wonder why a newcomer like you would come to make such demands?



I'm not a newcomer!

Anyway, I'm sorry if I've upset someone with this thread.







Posted on: 2012/7/31 12:02
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Quote:


I'd wish we, as a community, raise the funds necessary to get commodore amiga roms & WB 1.3/3.x rights, so that no one can prevent us from legally distributing them along with our favorite Aros distro.


and i would wish pigs could fly.
aros is the only amiga solution independent of corporate mess licensing where there is even no definitely secure way to determine who is owner of what and where to license anything, not to get sued by some other culprit who claims to own the same stuff. and now you want us to dump all that privilege and years of development in favour of returning to thirty years old propertary solution that will cost your arm and leg?? and you wish us to raise funds for that?? you must be coming from some other fraction, where initiatives like that are being greatly enjoyed. especially lately.

Quote:

Why do I want this, despite the existance of Aros68k replacement efforts ?

Well, the fact is that Aros68k isn't and wlll NEVER be 100% compatible, in order for us to have a proper AmigaOS integration.


aros 68k has been undertaken to address the issue you are talking about along the lines of aros open source philosophy. telling that it will not be compatible enough is fud. i use it on my amigas and great amount of original software works already despite aros68k is clearly wip. not to mention aros has the only chance to provide one kickstart for alround compatibility while 1.x-3.x are in many cases not compatible to each other.

well im not a senior in this community myself, i came here exactly because of aros68k, but i wonder why a newcomer like you would come to make such demands?

Posted on: 2012/7/31 11:33
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Sorry but IcAROS comes with an AmigaFuture installer and Broadway too.

A "new" AROS user with no Amiga background wouldn't care about those roms.

An amiga user should have needed Amiga roms.

An AresOne customer becomes AmigaForever too.

AROS68k will have better compatibility at some point and it will be even better than the original.

BTW.. Amiga ROMS and WB are still interesting commercial prodcuts.. Cloanto makes business out of it. AresOne uses them as small bon bon.

Just my point of view.

Posted on: 2012/7/31 11:08
www.aeros-os.org AEROS for Raspberry Pi
www.aros-broadway.de Native AROS for i386 and m68k
www.indiego-Gaming.com indieGO! The AppStore for all amigans
www.ares-shop.eu
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Reminds me of the Emumiga project:

http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4804

Copy/Pasting the project information as the official site is down ATM:

Quote:
What is it?

Emumiga is a Motorola MC68000 emulator and a system interface proxy for AROS. Our goal is to run AmigaOS 3.x applications directly in AROS without emulating the Amiga chipset and without a copyrighted Amiga ROM image. These two things are what separates it from the noble effort of integrating UAE into AROS.
Why does it exist?

We wanted something different than UAE on AROS, for a couple of reasons. First, licensing. UAE currently needs a commercial license for a ROM copyrighted by Amiga Inc, available for instance from Amiga Forever. We think this is unfortunate if all you want to do is run some favourite Amiga application on your AROS system. Therefore, Emumiga will be open source. This is one reason for Emumiga to exist. Another reason is, we want Amiga applications to be run as native applications in AROS, or first class citizens, if you like. An Amiga application should be able to talk to the AREXX port of an AROS application, and the other way around. When the Amiga application calls a library, it will automatically be a native AROS library, running some Amiga applications at close to AROS speeds, for instance when using datatypes.
How it works

Emumiga consists of a Motorola 68000 processor emulator that runs in emulated virtual memory. The virtual memory space contains mappings of real AROS system objects accessible from the virtual CPU. The mappings are set up to create AmigaOS binary-compatible system structures. Emumiga intercepts system calls made in the Amiga application and forward them to the corresponding AROS system calls. Emumiga constantly keeps track of all mappings, sets up new mappings as new objects are discovered and removes mappings for dead objects. The emulated CPU will not emulate any exact version of the MC68000 line of processors, but will behave in a way that runs the largest number of programs possible.
Goals we are not pursuing

Emumiga might never emulate the copper, the blitter and so on, in a bitbanging way. Do not expect an Amiga demo to run on the Emumiga anytime soon. Think of it this way: if an application ran on the Draco Amiga clone which had no blitter or copper, then we want it to run in Emumiga. There is no architectural limitation stopping Emumiga from emulating a complete Amiga chipset, but this is not our primary or even secondary goal. If you want to run demos or games on something else than an old Amiga, there is UAE or Minimig after all. To avoid the licensing cost for these, we suggest creating an open source replacement for the Amiga 500 and 1200 ROM. (Jakob has plans for this, contact him if you are interested and know asm. He is not interested in the bounty, do not feel threatened by him if you are interested in the bounty.)
Implications

AROS was created to be AmigaOS compatible. That goal is still visible but we want focus back on AmigaOS compatibility. AROS of today is pretty complete as an operating system, it already is the basis of an AROS distribution, the Icaros Desktop. That AROS has come as far as it has is nothing short of amazing. In roughly the same time period, the Wine project developed an implementation of the Windows API. However, they had from day one a luxury we did not: the ability to run legacy binaries to get further and further in their reverse engineering. Imagine, if we could improve AROS compatibility with AmigaOS by testing native AmigaOS m68k applications in all versions of AROS regardless of CPU or endianness. Frankly, we want to guide the development of AROS. If you want to extend AROS with capabilities AmigaOS never had, go right ahead, but not at the expense of AmigaOS compatibility. If AROS is no longer an AmigaOS clone, what makes it special? Why not use Syllable or any of the other countless operating systems out there? We want our Amigas back, both in AROS form on PC hardware, and in the new generation of Amiga hardware clones. The success of the hardware clones depends on an open source implementation of the Kickstart and not some closed alternative running only on proprietary hardware.
Credits

Too many to mention. We stand on the shoulders of giants. Without the thousands of hours spent by others, we would not be here with an attitude. Thanks, all Amiga fans, open source people, AROS developers and supporters. Oh, and Bernd Roesch is an unsung hero of AROS development with his AROS for Amiga. This is AROS code compiled for and running on Amigas!
Authors

Emumiga is written by Moggen, with great help and ideas from Jakob.

Posted on: 2012/7/31 10:47
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Re: Bounty to acquire Commodore-AmigaOS ROMs
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Quote:

Shufflepuck wrote:
You can always buy the excellent Amiga Forever package from Cloanto.

http://www.amigaforever.com/



I can buy it for sure, BUT we can't tell a generic user (read: a newcomer to Aros) to go through the hassle to purchase it and copying it to the "appropriate" directory in order to "activate" the integrated amigaos experience.



Posted on: 2012/7/31 10:39
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